This is the transcript from the September 2, 1992 meeting of smalltalk users
held on irc.
                                  - mjb -

                               mjb@netcom.com

<martinb> hi mike
*** Portnoy has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> hi.  i am still not a Smalltalk programmer, just a wannabe.  we
+never did buy any s/w.  sigh.
<mikeoltz> so i will watch.
<martinb> hi portnoy
<martinb> too bad
<Portnoy> Hi all
<martinb> glad to have your participation, none-the-less
<Portnoy> i started porting from 4.0 to 4.1
<martinb> how much work does that involve
<Portnoy> 'til yet it's only work, no real problem
*** voss has joined channel #programST
*** Calvino has joined channel #programST
<Portnoy> there are some annoying renamings without change in functionality
<martinb> hi voss (?)
<Calvino> Hi all.
<voss> hi all
<martinb> hi Calvino
<Portnoy> hi voss, I've seen your little goodies for 4.1
<martinb> voss = visual object storage system (?)  ;)
<voss> They're not paying me royalties, and I'm annoyed ;-)
<martinb> ;)
<voss> like my goodies?
<Portnoy> no, voss= manager of the illinois smalltalk archive
<martinb> ah
*** voss is now known as BillVoss
<martinb> nice to meet you
<BillVoss> that better.
<martinb> si
<Portnoy> they are nice,
<martinb> I appreciate your work at uiuc
<Portnoy> but I use the FullBrowser, so I don't need some of them
<BillVoss> glad to feel wanted ;-)
<Calvino> BillVoss: Which goodies are these?
<Portnoy> the controller fix seems familiar to me from the time I used the
+noPoll goodie
<Portnoy> all booleanwidgetbuttons didn't react any more
<Portnoy> I guessed that some button up event was missed, but I couldn't fix
+it
<Portnoy> bill: the most useful part of the advanced programming objectkit,
<martinb> when's the pp st with native GUI coming out?
<BillVoss> Has anyone done something like HyperText buttons under R4?
*** Signoff: Portnoy (disuns2.epfl.ch noc.belwue.de)
<martinb> Bill, manchester mirrors uiuc (smalltalk sect only?), does uiuc mirror
+manchester?
*** Portnoy has joined channel #programST
<BillVoss> Yes, the mirrors are complete in both directions
<martinb> thanx
<BillVoss> (actually I may them do all the work ;-)
<Portnoy> oops, netsplit
<martinb> hmm
<BillVoss> So nobody does or knows of HyperText buttons?
<martinb> don't see split here
<mikeoltz> That was Portnoy dropping out and coming back.
<Portnoy> excuse me, i missed something, what Hypertext buttons?
<mikeoltz> [click] No link in my head on hypertext buttons. :-)
<BillVoss> I'm looking to see if anyone has implemented something like them
+that
<BillVoss> I can steal for R4 ;-)
*** david has joined channel #programST
<martinb> welcome david
<david> Thanks
<martinb> what smalltalk do you use?
<Portnoy> bill: i can think of at least 3 ways of hyperbuttons
<BillVoss> ParcPlace Release 4.1
<Portnoy> bill: hotspots in the text, buttons in a window and menuitems
<Portnoy> bill: I would be very interested too (of course)
<martinb> david, what smalltalk do you use?
<david> Does anyone know a software called Tiger?
<Portnoy> dav: Tigre!
<david> I use SMALLTALK-80
<david>  Maybe
<Portnoy> I don't have it, but it's a user interface editor
<david> Is it a kind of program generator?
<BillVoss> precisely Portnoy, that is what I think I'ld like.
<BillVoss> actually, I just figured the node should have a zero argument block
+associated with it.
<BillVoss> then clicking on the node sends #value.
<Portnoy> david: yes, i think you will be provided with some update aspects to
+communicate with the UI
<Portnoy> bill: yes, but what happens if you want to save the net with BOSS,
+blocks are difficult
<BillVoss> I've never used BOSS, so it hasn't been a consideration.
<Portnoy> bill: baz talked about some hypertext system of him for 2.5
<BillVoss> In truth what I am looking for is quick and dirty.
<BillVoss> It would be nice to have buttons, but not so nice that I want to
+spend
<BillVoss> more than a week or so implementing them.
<Portnoy> bill: hotdraw and foible come near to it
<Portnoy> bill: you irritated me, because I thought of some Class of Buttons
+that do it
<david> Well, another question. Is anyone aware of DBMS products in Smalltalk?
<Portnoy> bill: but it's more a kind of node you need, the standard buttons
+will do
<Portnoy> david: yes, orion, gemstone and our own prototype Cookie
<Portnoy> david: and it could be that ENVY and ENFIN have it to
<Portnoy> david: but perhaps you only need the Binary Object Storage Service
+BOSS?
<david> Portnoy: thanks
*** Signoff: david (david)
*** tonyk has joined channel #programST
<Portnoy> david: Orion and Gemstone are OODBMS implemented (part or whole) i
+ST
<martinb> hi tonyk
<Portnoy> ENVY, ENFIN and BOSS are enhancements
<martinb> tonyk, what smalltalk do you use?
<tonyk> parcplace mostly these day though i've played with digitalk's stuff
+since
<martinb> ah
<tonyk> Methods (only one i haven't used is the OS/2 version)
<BillVoss> Gotta run folks, see you in a month or so.
<mikeoltz> eybdoog.
*** BillVoss has left channel #programST
<martinb> (as an aside, I received an offer from MS for C/C++, 6000 pages of docs, SDK
+3.1 with SDK docs online, plus 3 SDK manuals, plus 386MAX, all for $139! not
+a bad offer)
*mikeoltz* yeah, i got that.  i already have Borland.
<martinb> with this package you can write your own .dll's for windows
<martinb> How do you like Borlands pkg?
*mikeoltz* i have been using Borland's compilers for years, and i like the IDE
+better than Microsoft's.
*mikeoltz* each package has its advantages.
<Portnoy> comp.lang.smalltalk spread the rumour of PP/OW for NeXT and OS/2
<martinb> (ide = intergrated dialog editor ?)
<martinb> (integrated)
*mikeoltz* integrated development environment.  has multi-file editor, option
+setting, compiler, all built in.
*Portnoy* we have an ide = instructional design editor
*mikeoltz* Microsoft's IDE still runs only under DOS!  (but can compile for
+Windows)
<martinb> Portnoy, is that part of the PP nativeGUI version(s) rumor(?) ?
*mikeoltz* Borland comes with a DOS-hosted IDE and a Windows-hosted IDE.
<martinb> ah
*mikeoltz* I am using the /MSG command to talk to you because it is off-topic.
<martinb> what's an instructional design editor? (pardon my ignorance)
<mikeoltz> whom are you asking?  i don't know.
<martinb> ;), sorry doing too much at once
*Portnoy* sorry, was a privat message because our ide is not in smalltalk, and
+it's for analysis of computer based tutoring
<martinb> with this cozy a group, slightly off topic msg's can be "live" I would
+think, ok?
<Portnoy> anybody with experience with stephen popes MODE system (Music)?
<Calvino> Portnoy: Yes! I'm a co-author.
<Calvino> I like it.
<Portnoy> How is it compared with commercial sequencers, stable?, superior?
<Calvino> Of course, it was designed by people with lots of cool Sun-based
+hardware, but it's still very cool.
<Calvino> Portnoy: It doesn't really tread on the turf of commercial
+sequencers yet.
<Portnoy> I thought it would be more Mac specific
<Calvino> It doesn't do too many "traditional things yet.
<Portnoy> I had problems to get at least the minimal package over the ocean
+:-(
<Calvino> No, it's pretty platform independent, but with a lot of cool
+interfaces to specific devices you'll usually find on Suns.
<tonyk> Pardon my ignorance, but how does MODE deal with MIDI devices from the
+Sun?
<Calvino> We tackled some more bizarre forms of notation and recording first,
+like TR-trees, and digital audio.
<Calvino> tonyk: It uses Sun's MIDI little-known driver and interface.
<Calvino> tonyk: er, It uses Sun's little-known MIDI driver and interface.
<tonyk> little know is right, i don't remember ever seeing it on Sun's price
+list.
<martinb> ;)
<Portnoy> if I was about to buy a computer for smalltalk and music, what would
+you recommend?
<Calvino> Right. It's not a released product. It's more like an alpha product
+that they give away for free to people who know about it and ask the right
+people for it.
<Calvino> Sad, really.
<Calvino> But understandable, since it's not something they are putting a lot
+of resources into.
<Calvino> Portnoy: I'd recommend a Macintosh.
<Portnoy> NeXT and Falcon have DSP but no Parcplace Smalltalk,
<mikeoltz> Portnoy: a pair of bongo drums, or a didgerido.  you can engage in
+lots of smalltalk about them... :-)
<Calvino> I'll have interfaces for it done before long.
<Calvino> Portnoy: Not yet, anyway.
<Portnoy> SUN, IBM and DEC are to expensive for private use, so Mac remains
<Calvino> Portnoy: Yeah, I'd almost recommend the NeXT, but the Mac seems a
+bigger win in terms of other music software.
<Portnoy> oops and PCs of course :-(
<Calvino> Since the NeXT is becoming rather affordable.
<Portnoy> NeXT, how much?
<Calvino> Oh, yes! Don't forget that NeXTStep runs on '486 boxes, faster than
+the on the NeXT boxes!
<Calvino> You can get a mono NeXTstation for US 3,500.
<martinb> NextStep has been released for 486?
<Portnoy> cal: same question as martinb?
<Portnoy> cal: i know it's announced, but...
<Calvino> martinb: not released. It's actually pretty funny. They don't know
+what to do about the fact that NeXTStep runs faster on the 486 boxes than on
+he "native platform". I think they're trying to gracefully find a way of
+SLOWING IT DOWN on the 486 boxes before they release it!
<martinb> too bad
<Portnoy> ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh
<Calvino> Anyway, MODE is best on the Suns at this particular moment, becuase
+we have the largest number of cool device interfaces there.
<mikeoltz> Steve Jobs must be really embarrassed...
<Portnoy> it's time that the NeXT itself runs on a RISC CHip
<Calvino> Portnoy: Right. I think the 68000 series will be totally supplanted
+by RISCs before too long (~5 years).
<Portnoy> cal: where did you get that information on NeXTStep?
<Calvino> Portnoy: trade rag. I think it's appeared in the Wall Street
+Journal, among other places.
<martinb> I've always been kinda sad that the Motorola 88K RISC didn't do better.
<martinb> I'll be hopping over to the next newsgroup after I leave here :)
<Portnoy> mb: yes, i think they put their experience of the 88k in the POWER
+Chipset
<martinb> (what is the name of the next newsgroup, anyone know?
<mikeoltz> you mean NeXT newsgroup, martinb?
<Calvino> ARM gets my vote...
<martinb> yes
<mikeoltz> do you mean comp.sys.next.* ?
*** shf has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> there are several.
<martinb> welcome shf
<shf> hi, mind if i listen?
<mikeoltz> if you can listen, tell us how.  you can watch easily.
<martinb> mike: whichever one would mpost likely have info on the NeXtStpe on 486
<shf> :)
<Portnoy> cal: did you get your fun by programming MODE or by using it (and
+how)?
<mikeoltz> hmm.  ya got me, i only know about them, i don't use them, martinb.
<martinb> oh well... I'll grep my .newsrc
<Calvino> Portnoy: I was a user of it first. Then, when I saw all the things
+that "needed fixing", I was a programmer of it... the typical Smalltalk
+cycle!
<Calvino> Actually, I was involved in a major redesign of it. So, we discussed
+it pretty abstractly before we really got our hands dirty.
<Portnoy> is stephen interested in MODE scientifically?
<Calvino> "Scientifically" ?
<Portnoy> i mean is it a research of him (abstract OO music representation or
+something?)
<Calvino> (Oh,sorry: for those who haven't heard of it before, MODE stands for
+"Musical Object Development Environment". It was written by Stephen Pope, et
+al, in ParcPlace Smalltalk.)
<martinb> ah
<shf> thank you
<Calvino> Portnoy: Yeah; it's his main personal project (besides composing, of
+course!)
<Calvino> And it keeps my image nice and fat, as well :)
<martinb> what are your pp images sizes? ave size?
<Calvino> 4 Meg!
<martinb> would you say that's average?
<Calvino> Yeah. MODE is big.
*** Signoff: shf (Leaving)
<Calvino> Of course, there are ways to pare that down, I'm just too lazy at
+the moment.
<martinb> how big would you estimate without MODE?
<Portnoy> do you do MIDI or /dev/audio/ ?
<Calvino> Virgin size is about 1.7 Meg. Well, be fair, I've also got a bunch
+of other crap in there, too.
<Calvino> Portnoy: both.
<martinb> that gives me an idea
<Calvino> /dev/audio and /dev/midi.
<Portnoy> and what midi device?
<Calvino> Portnoy: All sorts. We usually use a rackmount wavestation for
+demos.
<Calvino> I'm hoping to complete an interface to the Zeta MIDI guitar soon.
<martinb> as a comparison, my V/Win v2.0 image with WindowBuilder and SubPanes/V is
+running about 1meg
<Portnoy> hey, i have a wavestation to
<Calvino> martinb: Kthere's no comparison, rally (he said contentiously).
<Calvino> martinb: Ahem. There's no comparison, really (he said
+contentiously).
<martinb> :)  yeah, I guess so  :(
<Calvino> martinb: what's your idea?
<martinb> Cal: don't know where that line came from, really
<martinb> are you guys happy with the date and time of these conferences? suggestions
+to get more participants?
<Portnoy> cal: so you can go to the meetings regulary?
<mikeoltz> choose a topic ahead of time?
<Calvino> Well, they're a little early in the morning for me... :)  It's a
+good time.
<Portnoy> martinb: yes, i very happy with it, 'cause i'm in europe and have
+more time in the evening
<Portnoy> if you change it, it would be in the middle of the night for us
<martinb> I was hoping to induce ST industry types to participate as "guest s" , but
+hard to do, when you only have 6 or so participants
<Calvino> Well...
<Calvino> I would volunteer to be one of those people.
<martinb> what would be your subject matter(?)  ?
<martinb> subject matter/ topic
<martinb> ?
<martinb> (hello ?)
<Calvino> Net lag... Well, that's a good question, since there is far too much
+secrecy nowadway. But I would probably talk about current ("non-secret")
+programming concepts, like MVC,
<Calvino> and wild ideas for furure systems.
<Calvino> future
<Calvino> nowadays
<Calvino> (wish I could type!)
<martinb> would this be a lecture, or a discussion with you leading?
<Calvino> Probably a discussion (less prep)
<Portnoy> it's getting late for me, i'm hungry, so goodbye all, nice chat
+anyway
<martinb> later Portnoy
<Portnoy> smalltalk & music & irc = #programST :-)
<Calvino> be right back...
*** Signoff: Portnoy (Portnoy)
<martinb> sounds fine with me, why don't you work up a small notice that I can build
+an annuncement around for the next meeting?
<mikeoltz> must get back to work.  bye.
*** Signoff: mikeoltz (mikeoltz)
<Calvino> back
<Calvino> Yeah, that sounds good.
<martinb> good
<martinb> where are you located?
<Calvino> I'm in Sunnyvale.
<martinb> ah
<Calvino> Where are you?
<martinb> I'm thinking of trying a second st on irc meeting mid month at an evening
+time for those in the Western Hemi.  What do you think?
<martinb> Los Angeles
<Calvino> I think that would be a good idea. I was just getting intested when
+everyone left! Deciding on some sort of topic before hte meeting is a good
+idea, too.
<Calvino> Just throwing a bunch of programmers together in a room usually
+doesn't lead to very coherent results....
<Calvino> Imagine a room full of C programmers! Eeugh!
<martinb> well, work up that piece and send it to me, and we'll try it next month...
<Calvino> martinb: Sure thing.
<martinb> I'll work up another anncouncement for the mid-month western hemi meeting,
+19:00 PDT sound like a good time?
<martinb> I'll post on compuserve, too
<Calvino> cool.
<martinb> Tony, any ideas?
<Calvino> He's been idle to 52 minutes...
<Calvino> for
<martinb> maybe he's just a lurker :)
<Calvino> Yah.
<martinb> or just capturing
<martinb> is latta@xcf.Berkeley.EDU your correct addr?
<Calvino> Yup.
<martinb> well, I guess that about does it for today, eh?
<Calvino> Pretty much. Although I was reminded by one thing when you were
+talking about image sizes. So, we were thinking it might be cool to run bytes
+through some sort of compression en route to doing image saves/loads.
<martinb> from within ST, or as a dos thing?
<Calvino> Within ST. Portable.
<martinb> I'm not sure there's a real need given current computing power?
<Calvino> It seems like it could provide a large *space* savings for a small
+time tradeoff.
<Calvino> Disk space seems to be the one thing that hasn't improved
+exponentially in the last few years.
<martinb> I think it's workable and reasonable, but I don't think I'd NEED to 
+use it, and I'm only using a 386/20 with a 213/15msec hd
<Calvino> Yeah. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, or if it would just be
+a cool optimization hack... But I'm sure SOMEone would find it useful.
<Calvino> One of the things that really annoys me is when people rag on
+smalltalk for not being a good citizen in their resource-starved computing
+environments.
<martinb> I agree it would be useful to some and that it wouldbe a cool
+optimization hack
<Calvino> Despite the fact that they could just go out and get a much better
+bunch of hardware for a very reasonable cost... they don;t want to change
+their environement.
<Calvino> Yeah.
<martinb> I suspect it maybe more of a problem in the PP st world of unix,
+multiusers and larger images
<Calvino> Actually, I was thinking about the people with small DOS
+environments (the ones who are making Bill Gates a mutli-billionaire).
<martinb> than in the V/Win world of individual programmers
<Calvino> People actually don't care at all in the large workstation
+environments.
<martinb> I think that in the intel world people who use smalltalk are
+developers with adequate resources
<Calvino> I suppose.. I guess I'm thinking about the more casual people who
+are intersted in Smalltalk, but then decide against it because it doesn't
+suit their old hrdware.
<Calvino> Anway... it's time for lunch. This was a good conversation.
<martinb> I'm sure those people exist
<martinb> yeah, see you next time
<Calvino> Bye!
<martinb> bye

fini